skull_bearer | The brain-drain starts here

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The brain-drain starts here

So, what with education in the UK being stripped of basically everything, and the PM cutting anything which has 'public' anywhere near it. I've been eying the old Deutschland more and more appraisingly. After reading that Masters degrees are next on the chopping block (First they came for the undergraduates, and I said nothing....), I decided to see just what it was like over the channel and far away.

I swear this is some sort of dumb plot.

The scattering of pages my google search: 'Germany education news' brought will be paraphrased as follows:

Germany proposes 'happiness index'!
Germany education minister pledges to spend more money in higher education!
Germany's impoving economy in trouble because of lack of skilled workers!
Germany proposes bringing in more foreign students to its universities to make up for lack of skilled workers!
Visit our amazing International university in Berlin! (okay, that one was a bit random)

Grief. I mean, I'm used to moments where then world seem to be scream 'YOU! DO THIS!', but I though that was usually limited to Holocaust related stuff.

Unfortunately Paramour's previous visit to Germany was as part of the occupying forces, and being of the baby boom generation I think he still has the 'kraut=nazi' shorthand. He says he'll probably get over it.
Which is good, I have two years to do this course, and unless things get turned around sharpish, there's not going to be much for me to do around here.

So, you peeps who live in Germanland, please tell me what education is like at your end (ps, don't tell me it's crap, everything thinks their education is crap). My German teacher tells me that the fees are something like £1,000 a year (or was it in euros?) and if that's true it's already miles better than the UK.

Ok, I won't be able to sing 'Night of the Long Knives' in public, but then I probably shouldn't have done that anyway.

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I was about to start with "our education is crap", but since you don't want to hear that, let me try to be a bit more objective. First of all, don't be blinded by the beautiful promise of spending more money in higher education. It's just that, beautiful and very empty promises. We've had to deal with huge budget cuts and their unpleasant consequences as well. Now, of course, things depend a lot on which Bundesland you're in, and which university, and which course, but it's not a rose garden over here. Many universities here also have huge classes, mediocre teachers, the whole shebang. And when our politicians decide to spend more money on something, it's usually some weird show-off project that concerns a tiny minority of students ("look at us, we're spending money on education!"). Now if you're doing something like that, awesome. If not ... less awesome. I have never studied in the UK, so I can't compare. I'm just warning you not to expect too much of our universities. Also, I don't know what exactly studying is like in the UK, but here we have usually really tight rules and restrictions about which classes we HAVE to take. This is at least true for Bachelor and Master degrees; once you're doing a PhD you can do whatever you like. It used to be very different, but since the big university reform a few years ago the curricula are pretty strict. I don't know if this is any different in the UK or not, just saying. As I said, we have huge differences between the different Länder and universities, so if you really want to study here you should choose carefully. Unfortunately many of the supposedly good universities are in small hicktowns nobody wants to live in. As for the fees, they're of course a lot lower than in the UK. Again, it depends on the Bundesland you're in: some have so-called Studiengebühren, I think the highest is something like 500 or 700€ per semester, but I'm not sure. Other Länder don't have that, there you only have to pay smaller fees for administration and stuff. At least here in Berlin that's around 270€/semester (and that's including a semester ticket for the otherwise insanely expensive public transport around here). This is of course only for the state universities. There are private schools and universities that are a LOT more expensive. It really depends on what you want to do and where you want to go. You can ask me if you want to hear more, but I can only speak from my experiences and the things I've heard from friends, and most of that is limited to the different universities in and around Berlin. And while Berlin is no doubt the best city to live in in Germany, we are not exactly known for our great universities anymore.

Edited 2011-01-18 00:45 (UTC)

Erm, this was supposed to have paragraphs. oO I don't know why it doesn't, for some reason I can't edit it either. Sorry.

I wasn't expecting sunshine and roses, I was just hoping for something better than what we have here, and by what you've said, it is. In spades.

Thanks!

As I said, I can't compare. Most German students I know who went to the UK thought it was way better over there, but I suppose that we're all just way harder on our home than on other countries.

What sort of universities are available if you don't pass/sit the Test DaF? It's B2/C1 level in the EU Language reference chart, so I suppose it's similar in difficulty to the old Zentrale Mittelstufeprufung. If the course content is in English, perhaps it wouldn't be a requirement?

I'm going to apply for 2012 entry to various Max Planck-affiliated universities, but this is for a PhD, so I don't know how much of the information will be useful. I certainly didn't hear anything negative about the education system from a couple of exchange students we had in Sydney earlier this year. They were both studying for a Diplom at the University of Munster, which is roughly a Masters. Their fees were around 1-2000 euros per semester (or that may have been per month). The only possible negative was that the tutorials were tough: you had to be on the ball and have everything completed.

Once Paramour gets to Germany and sees that modern Berlin is quite possibly the centre of the universe, perhaps his views will change. My mother hadn't been back to Berlin since the occupation and she went around for the first day with her jaw scraping the pavement.

You won't be able to sing that in public, but no-one will stop you from whistling it.

she went around for the first day with her jaw scraping the pavement.
That seems to be a common reaction when people come to Berlin. ;)

I first when there with Shadowvalkyrie, and even she was amazed how much it had changed. I didn't so much, I'd never been there before, so my reaction was more: "Wow, everything's so clean! And so green! This is even greener than London! And they have their own forest! And the most adorable little plaques on the pavements to mark where Jewish families were deported!"

Sydney isn't know for its cleanliness, nor any greenery (we were in the middle of a ten year drought when I went), so I suspect my reaction was the same as yours amplified by 1000. I didn't notice the plaques though. Did you stay for a while? I only had a week and a bit in an apartment in Mitte.

Only a few days, and then a second week the following year. Then again, I was looking for them.

The plaques aren't just in Berlin! Almost every city has them.

What I remember most is your reaction to all the public smokers and the nuns. ":-D

To be fair, that was my reaction to everywhere I had been on that trip.

Yep. despite my PhD field claiming that the universe is both homogeneous and isotropic, I am certain that a) the universe has a centre and b) it is Berlin.

It's good to see that politicians in all countries like fulfilling their election promises by spending the taxpayers' money on useless niche initiatives. (Sensible politicians will come into power shortly before the sky begins to fall.)

Good news: Strict course requirements aren't a problem for me doing a PhD. No exorbitant fees for international students sounds GREAT (here, add a zero to the end of your course costs if you're not an Australian citizen). Public transport may be expensive (honestly, I didn't notice, except for the stupidly expensive intercity DB services) but at least it doesn't claim things like "98% of our trains are on time, on time being the scheduled arrival time plus or minus five minutes."

Bad news: Good universities in small hick towns? How dull! I did notice that one of the universities for which I'm applying is the Ludwigs-Maximilien Universität München, but it sticks us all in Garching, which sounds suspiciously like a satellite village. I'll have to check the different policies in different Ländser too. Berlin not known for great universities? That's a real shame, since I was hoping to study there. I don't suppose there are any you can recommend for physics?

In that case I am happy to live at the centre of the universe.

I don't know what the PhD courses are like in physics. I just know that my brother, who's doing a PhD in history, has no classes or anything, he just works on his thesis wherever and however he likes.

The student fees are of course downright ridiculous compared to what you guys must be used to. The public transport is just bloody expensive here in Berlin, no idea what it's like in other cities. So having a ticket for Berlin is really a big plus. Doesn't help you with the Intercity, of course, but at least you get everywhere you want in and around Berlin without paying. ;)

Munich isn't a hicktown, obviously, though I have no idea where exactly Garching is. But since nobody can afford to live in the centre of Munich anyway, it probably doesn't really matter that your university is not in the centre either.
Yeah, we have some really good universities in fairly small towns like Freiburg, Heidelberg, Greifswald. The universities in Berlin aren't bad as such, but they're very big, meaning lots of students and few professors, while the smaller universities just take better care of their students. Of course, there's also Potsdam - you can easily live in Berlin and study in Potsdam, or live in Potsdam but go to Berlin whenever you like, it's only about half an hour by train.

Physics ... I have a friend who's studying physics in Dresden, he seemed fairly happy about it, but then again he's in the Bundeswehr so I don't really know if he had any choice about what university to go to. If you like, I can ask him if he can recommend anything.

I wish I had a PhD "coutse" like your brother's: every physics PhD I've seen requires completion of lecture courses as well as the thesis. Of course some places are more relaxed than other about what completion entails. Does he have to do an oral defence? Australia seems to be the only place that doesn't require one.

Oooh, free public transport? Yay, that means more money to spend on opera (which appears to be affordable over in Europe, rather than $200 a seat). There's food and rent to consider, but I think PhD students get a stipend for that, around 1000 euros a month. Hopefully I wouldn't have to live out of a cardboard box, like I would have to if I went to Cambridge.

It would be great if you could ask your friend for advice. It's pretty useless reading the university web pages, since they all have lots of promotional stuff and very little practical content.

AFAIK there are also PhD courses here that actually deserve to be called a course. ;) He has to do an oral defence, although I think that's pretty much a piece of cake compared to the work he has to spend on his thesis first.

I think many German universities have free public transport included in the student fees, but I'm not sure. And opera is more affordable here than it is apparently in Europe, but still not cheap as such. As for rent, it really depends on where you are: there are cities like Berlin (ridiculously cheap for a capital) and cities like Munich (ridiculously expensive), and everything in between. As for the stipends, you have to apply for them, and there aren't that many. Also, I have no idea how that works for non-German students.

I'll send an e-mail to him and ask him. I hope he'll reply soon, because often he doesn't. ;)

... 1000 euros a month?
I had to live off a £3,000 a year loan....

Keep in mind German profs need *two* PhDs, and the last time I looked, the appointment system was way more sexist than in the UK.

"In 2006 women occupied just 9% of the senior academic positions (known as C-4 professors), the lowest proportion in 12 major European countries, according to the Center of Excellence Women and Science in Bonn. Only 7 of 109 universities in Germany are led by women."
(Nature, 2008)

The tories- they do what it says on the tin!

Sigh :o(

Seriously though, I'm more than tempted to head back to his old stamping grounds in Paris or mine in West Flanders and Belgium is a bloody mess politically atm. It just feels as though anywhere has to be better than here! :o(

Oh! And Cameron has been proposing a 'happiness index' too!

Verily, the mind boggleth!

I totally agree to the first comment. Don't expect too much of Germany and its educational system. Perhaps it's still better than in the UK, but our politicians are quite busy with destroying it by half-hearted "reforms" and by saving.

I second what people said above: it's not bad over here, but it absolutely isn't the promised land, either. Recent reforms have brought tight curricula and thus made studying what interests you a lot harder.

And while studying is a lot cheaper -- with fees, train ticket and social compensation stuff, I pay roughly 500 € a semester in total, which is about average afaik, plus the usual living expenses (rent, food, the yadda) -- this comes at the cost of much larger classes (often with hundreds of people, very rarely less than 30), and subsequently stressed-out and often unfriendly profs who don't have time for individual students and usually don't know you by name. (Though with a "smaller" (attendance-wise) subject like History, that's less extreme than it was in English when I still did that, or what I've heard from the business-related subjects.

Before you decide on where to apply, make sure you check the subject-specific uni-rankings (must be somewhere on the internet), because the quality differences are huge. Often, small universities trump the big ones like Berlin, Munich, or Cologne. Obviously, I'm all in favour of Münster and you should consider it advertised for special consideration. ";-)

I should add for reasons of fairness that my department isn't so great for Holocaust-related things and only appeals to me as a Medievalist. So you might want to find a different uni.

Only 1,000 a year? If only I knew German. I'd be out of the US so fast. Here in the states the prices range from 3,000 a semester (community college) to 60,000 a semester.

I had a chat to my German teacher about fees, he pretty much said people in the UK shouldn't complain, look at the US. I replied that this was why America was going down in a blaze of fail and would probably take Israel with it. I admit Israel was a cheap shot.

Yes, America is Titanic and you lot are watching from a beach laughing at us. To be fair, we deserve it.

Not laughing, but desperately backing away from the beach in case the resulting wave swamps us.

Aye. I'm ar present reading a new study of the collapse of the Western Roman Empire for review purposes and a lot of it looks horribly familiar.......

Thats an era and event that fascinates me, whats the name of the study?

Apologies for the late response- I've messaged you the details!

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The brain-drain starts here

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