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dnleedistracted:
skull-bearer:
cesare-and-raistlin:
One thing that annoys me the most about the way people see Raistlin and Caramon’s relationship, is that lot of them just think that Raistlin is jealous of Caramon, and that’s the only reason he hates him. They view Raistlin as ungrateful. But what I think is that they don’t realise something that Raistlin is perfectly conscious of.
And that is that Caramon would never have cared for Raistlin if they hadn’t been brothers. The Caramon twin-of-Raistlin we know is attentioned and caring and worried about his brother. But if both of them had come from different families, Caramon wouldn’t have cared at all at what happened to that sickly-looking weird guy. Oh, maybe he would have helped Raistlin if he had seen him fall of cough, but he would have done it with pity and condescension. And maybe he wouldn’t even have done it. Maybe he would have looked at Raistlin as a god-forsaken magic user that deserved what was happening to him.
And above all, never would a Caramon that wasn’t Raistlin’s brother would ever have become friends with Raistlin. Never. They would never have had a relationship similar to theirs with Tanis or Flint or Sturm. Caramon would never had come close to even create friendly bond with a man like Raistlin. (And when I say “a man like Raistlin”, I’m not talking about dark-wizard-with-god-like-powers-and-evil-ambitions-Raistlin, but rather about weak-and-sarcastic-slender-wizard-who-loves-learning-Raistlin.)
And I really think this is the real reason of Raistlin’s disdain for Caramon, rather than jealousy. He knows that Caramon’s love for him is more a dutiful one than a sincere one.
This is a seriously good point.
This is really interesting and got me thinking:
I think this is true but only up to a point. Imagine a Solace where Raistlin and Caramon are unrelated. Raistlin would still end up going to the magic school and Caramon would still end up working for Farmer Sedge and nothing much would be different on the surface except that their paths would hardly cross.
Except when it comes to Raistlin being bullied.
I think Caramon has a strong enough sense of justice and goodwill on his own that the inevitable bullying that not-twin-brother Raistlin would still have received would be appalling to him. Maybe when they were kids, Caramon wouldn’t have been so bothered by it, but by say age 11 or 12, I think he would have intervened on Raistlin’s behalf. Maybe Raistlin would appreciate a non-twin-brother Caramon more for this precisely because it would seem less dutiful without the brotherly connection. Imagine a friendship budding between them against all odds because of some incident where the popular, brawny young Caramon stood up for the sickly, diminutive Raistlin (in a way that doesn’t make Raist feel smothered or looked down on, of course). Imagine a healthier relationship forming based on each seeing qualities in the other that they admire (or are even a little jealous of) but instead of being literally born in to that relationship, it develops as a matter of choice. To your point, imagine how happy it would make Raistlin to know that he has a lifelong friend in Caramon, and vice versa, without all the toxicity of their relationship as twins.
I think it would be possible for non-twin-brother Caramon to befriend a young Raistlin. I think his tendencies to be nurturing and caring don’t stem entirely from having Raistlin as his twin, and maybe with some initial distance from each other, they could have had something better between them. Raistlin’s a hard egg to crack, but I think Caramon could still eventually crack it.
Okay, I don’t want this to be seen as starting drama, since our little Dragonlance fandom has been cheerfully drama free until now, but I do want to dissent here. I love your analysis here and think it works very well- with a certain view of Caramon’s character.
I do like this view of Caramon, and it is a view of him we do see in the books- when he’s not being written by Weiss or Hickman.
Their view of Caramon- and maybe I’m a bit jaded here- is subtly different, and reading between the lines and looking at what we’re shown of Caramon rather than what we’re told- it paints a rather different picture of him.
Caramon tends to be someone who doesn’t question the status quo. Yes, if he knows and comes to care for someone he’ll defend them if something bad is happening to them- but I’m not sure how often that happens without him already knowing the person. There are also some rather telling points in the story that make me side eye Caramon.
I think it was in Chronicles or Legends where someone- maybe Caramon himself- points out that it’s Raistlin who made sure they worked for honorable causes in their mercenary years, suggesting that if Caramon was left alone he’d have fought for any cause- good or bad.
He also shows a definite unwillingness to break out of his comfort zone. In Soulforge it’s Raistlin who suggests they go meet Flint and Tas, and Caramon who makes a rather xenophobic comment that they should ‘stick to their own kind’.
Caramon still stays friends with the people who beat up his brother. These are people he still plays and hangs out with, despite the fact that they occasionally attack Raistlin. That’s not good however you frame it.
And finally- and this is the bit that knocked Caramon from my ‘meh, he’s okay’ box to my ‘omgwtf is wrong with you box’- In Dragons of Summer Flame, he makes an ‘say you want about fascism but at least the trains run on time’ type of comment to Tika about the rule of the Knights of Takhisis.
You know, the same knights who are doing their best to wipe out elves and dwarves, and are actively engaged in genocide against the kender.
You know, those races Tanis and Flint and Tas belonged to.
His own sons were killed and one captured by said Knights and he still didn’t care.
He defended them.
To me, this made it clear that Raistlin was the one who inherited the moral compass, even if he did ignore it half the time. Caramon isn’t bad, he’s just the depressing low grade neutral who gets on with his life when people are being murdered and oppressed en-mass, as long as he isn’t inconvenienced. Who just follows orders. Who doesn’t like to be challenged in his views.
And the sort of person who’d walk past and think ‘meh, not my problem’ seeing a scrawny kid of a mage getting the daylights beaten out of him.
This has been my anti-Caramon rant.
dnleedistracted:
skull-bearer:
cesare-and-raistlin:
One thing that annoys me the most about the way people see Raistlin and Caramon’s relationship, is that lot of them just think that Raistlin is jealous of Caramon, and that’s the only reason he hates him. They view Raistlin as ungrateful. But what I think is that they don’t realise something that Raistlin is perfectly conscious of.
And that is that Caramon would never have cared for Raistlin if they hadn’t been brothers. The Caramon twin-of-Raistlin we know is attentioned and caring and worried about his brother. But if both of them had come from different families, Caramon wouldn’t have cared at all at what happened to that sickly-looking weird guy. Oh, maybe he would have helped Raistlin if he had seen him fall of cough, but he would have done it with pity and condescension. And maybe he wouldn’t even have done it. Maybe he would have looked at Raistlin as a god-forsaken magic user that deserved what was happening to him.
And above all, never would a Caramon that wasn’t Raistlin’s brother would ever have become friends with Raistlin. Never. They would never have had a relationship similar to theirs with Tanis or Flint or Sturm. Caramon would never had come close to even create friendly bond with a man like Raistlin. (And when I say “a man like Raistlin”, I’m not talking about dark-wizard-with-god-like-powers-and-evil-ambitions-Raistlin, but rather about weak-and-sarcastic-slender-wizard-who-loves-learning-Raistlin.)
And I really think this is the real reason of Raistlin’s disdain for Caramon, rather than jealousy. He knows that Caramon’s love for him is more a dutiful one than a sincere one.
This is a seriously good point.
This is really interesting and got me thinking:
I think this is true but only up to a point. Imagine a Solace where Raistlin and Caramon are unrelated. Raistlin would still end up going to the magic school and Caramon would still end up working for Farmer Sedge and nothing much would be different on the surface except that their paths would hardly cross.
Except when it comes to Raistlin being bullied.
I think Caramon has a strong enough sense of justice and goodwill on his own that the inevitable bullying that not-twin-brother Raistlin would still have received would be appalling to him. Maybe when they were kids, Caramon wouldn’t have been so bothered by it, but by say age 11 or 12, I think he would have intervened on Raistlin’s behalf. Maybe Raistlin would appreciate a non-twin-brother Caramon more for this precisely because it would seem less dutiful without the brotherly connection. Imagine a friendship budding between them against all odds because of some incident where the popular, brawny young Caramon stood up for the sickly, diminutive Raistlin (in a way that doesn’t make Raist feel smothered or looked down on, of course). Imagine a healthier relationship forming based on each seeing qualities in the other that they admire (or are even a little jealous of) but instead of being literally born in to that relationship, it develops as a matter of choice. To your point, imagine how happy it would make Raistlin to know that he has a lifelong friend in Caramon, and vice versa, without all the toxicity of their relationship as twins.
I think it would be possible for non-twin-brother Caramon to befriend a young Raistlin. I think his tendencies to be nurturing and caring don’t stem entirely from having Raistlin as his twin, and maybe with some initial distance from each other, they could have had something better between them. Raistlin’s a hard egg to crack, but I think Caramon could still eventually crack it.
Okay, I don’t want this to be seen as starting drama, since our little Dragonlance fandom has been cheerfully drama free until now, but I do want to dissent here. I love your analysis here and think it works very well- with a certain view of Caramon’s character.
I do like this view of Caramon, and it is a view of him we do see in the books- when he’s not being written by Weiss or Hickman.
Their view of Caramon- and maybe I’m a bit jaded here- is subtly different, and reading between the lines and looking at what we’re shown of Caramon rather than what we’re told- it paints a rather different picture of him.
Caramon tends to be someone who doesn’t question the status quo. Yes, if he knows and comes to care for someone he’ll defend them if something bad is happening to them- but I’m not sure how often that happens without him already knowing the person. There are also some rather telling points in the story that make me side eye Caramon.
I think it was in Chronicles or Legends where someone- maybe Caramon himself- points out that it’s Raistlin who made sure they worked for honorable causes in their mercenary years, suggesting that if Caramon was left alone he’d have fought for any cause- good or bad.
He also shows a definite unwillingness to break out of his comfort zone. In Soulforge it’s Raistlin who suggests they go meet Flint and Tas, and Caramon who makes a rather xenophobic comment that they should ‘stick to their own kind’.
Caramon still stays friends with the people who beat up his brother. These are people he still plays and hangs out with, despite the fact that they occasionally attack Raistlin. That’s not good however you frame it.
And finally- and this is the bit that knocked Caramon from my ‘meh, he’s okay’ box to my ‘omgwtf is wrong with you box’- In Dragons of Summer Flame, he makes an ‘say you want about fascism but at least the trains run on time’ type of comment to Tika about the rule of the Knights of Takhisis.
You know, the same knights who are doing their best to wipe out elves and dwarves, and are actively engaged in genocide against the kender.
You know, those races Tanis and Flint and Tas belonged to.
His own sons were killed and one captured by said Knights and he still didn’t care.
He defended them.
To me, this made it clear that Raistlin was the one who inherited the moral compass, even if he did ignore it half the time. Caramon isn’t bad, he’s just the depressing low grade neutral who gets on with his life when people are being murdered and oppressed en-mass, as long as he isn’t inconvenienced. Who just follows orders. Who doesn’t like to be challenged in his views.
And the sort of person who’d walk past and think ‘meh, not my problem’ seeing a scrawny kid of a mage getting the daylights beaten out of him.
This has been my anti-Caramon rant.