Atheist on Minority Religions

[skull_bearer]

I don't make any secret of being a fairly vocal atheist, I don't believe in god, I think believing in the three major religions are morally bankrupt (Christianity becuase of the notion of hell, Judaism because the old testament is all kinds of fucked up, Islam because... yeah). However, though I have the deepest respect for Richard Dawkins, the front man for atheism I identify the most with would probably Christopher Hitchins. Partly it's the deliviery, I don't do nice. I don't do patient. If you are speaking bullshit I will not wait for you to finish. And since religion is by its very definition bullshit you won't be getting a word in edgeways ;-)

One of the things that interests me about Hitchins is his view on minority religions. He reacts to them as virulently if not more so than he does to Xianity. One of my favourite videos on Youtube is of him ripping a Rabbi a new arsehole over male circumcision, which if you sit down and think about it for five, is totally fucked up. It's a bit awkward for me to talk about Judaism, seeing as I get a headache if I critisise it with one side (three guesses) cheering, and the other side booing, and then a massive fight. And then there's the fact that as they're not a prolyising (sp) religion it removes one thing I consider a big turn off. On the other hand, they're as screwed up as the rest of the religious folk, more so really, so it mostly come across as just plain weird but not my problem.

Israel is another matter. Israel is fucked up.

However, Hitchins seems to reserve his real bile for Islam, to the point where I'm nearly feeling uncomfortable because I've been ingrained to view Islamic people are a race rather than a bunch of people holding the same belief. He isn't racist, that much I'm pretty much certain of. He just really hates the religion. Now, I don't know much about the religion myself, I haven't had the same exposure to it as I have to Xianity. But what I've seen... well.
The problem is, as I think I've said in another post, is not the majority, but the fundementalists. Now, Xian fundies will shout at me. Jewish fundies will ignore me. Islamic fundies are - Holy Shit! Trying to kill me!
Yeah.
Now, I'm in the UK, and there's a lot of stuggle with the Islamic immigrant population, and unfortunately a lot of good points are being lost under the banner of Daily Fail racist ranting. Now, take Sharia courts. I know we have Jewish courts (and frankly I think we shouldn't, but that's another rant), and I'm not usually a believer in the 'slippery slope' argument. Often it's nothing of a the sort and giving a religious minorty the rigth the own courts shouldn't mean that they'll try and push their laws on the rest of us.
Except for the fact that, y'know that's exactly what they'll SAID they'll do. It's not a slippery slope argument when the subject is gung-ho to race straight down that slippery slope.

Now, this could be because of the policy in Iraq and Afganistan, and here is where I disagee with Mr Hitchins, he thinks the invasion of Iraq was justified. Well maybe it was if you believe the goal was freeing the Iraqi people from a admitted vile dictator. My problems with it is that a) Bush lied to his own people and b) bombing people to liberate them is a fucking shitty way of going about it and is making things worse. And there's, well, I wouldn't call it patriotism, but there's a reason I don't want to go anywhere near somewhere like Iran. Yes, I do think my country is better than theirs. I get away with more here. I have more fun here than I would there. I don't have to wear a fucking tent when I go out here. I have more rights. So when I hear those sick fucks talking about exporting Sharia law here I want to do everything in my power to stop that happening. Shit there's a reason why I had nightmares of dying and being reincarnated as a Muslim.

Okay, a little disclaimer here. I don't consider Muslims as a race, I consider them as I do Christians; a group of ethnically diverse people who subscribe to a system of belief I find abhorrent. If they kept that system of belief to themselves, like Jews do, then I'll have a bit more time for them. As it is, I wish they'd fuck right off.
I'm also not opposed to immigration, how could I be? I'm an immigrant myself! If the BNP got in I'd be out on my ear (if they got in I'd been already packed up and moving to the continent). It's a fairly cool country. Not as cool as Denmark or Finland of course, but then they're the Chuck Norris of cool countries, but if people want to come here and turn into Iran with shittier weather, they can go back to where they came from.
Also, I don't belief in the birthrate myth the Islamic fundies are crowing about, that one's been trumpeted by racists so much it's impossible to take seriously (although it's a bit of a shock to find a group using it against themselves, WTF?). It's like Christians saying that they are having more babies than atheists and thus we'll be bred out. LOL. Religion isn't genetic, no matter what Hitler said.

Comments

[totenkopf6.livejournal.com]

Religion may not be genetic, but in nine out of ten cases, it IS passed from parent to child. Parents who take their kids to church/synagogue/mosque each week will probably find their kids continue this into adulthood, thus the relgion continues, even if the actual faith/belief (within the individual) doesn't.

Anyway, I was hoping to see just what the viewpoint was on minority religions, as per the title, unless I read it wrong? I do see a distinction thought between the "big three" and most other religions, in that the others tend to see themselves as one option, not THE option, which the big three do. They see themselves as right, and everyone else wrong. I`d be very interested to see the viewpoint on say Hinduism, Buddhism, even norse relgion, Shinto etc etc...as I often see atheism being used (rightly enough) to engage the wrongdoings of the big three...

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

The thing with the smaller religions is that they don't have much clout, and besides I haven't had much exposure to them. I think they're little better than the big three on basis of accuracy and delusion and have caused their own problems, but here and now they're nowhere near Xianity and Islam when it comes to fucking things over.

[totenkopf6.livejournal.com]

I think what you mean is they don't have much clout in our society. ;) There are hundreds of millions of Hindus for a start, and many millions of Buddhists too. But neither faith has made any inroads into our society, nor do they wish to it would seem.
I meant to say too, part of the reason Judaism and Islam tend to be sidestepped is that its just not PC to criticise them, no matter how deserving they are.
I think also the thing with religion as delusion, is that its real to them, but only in the same way a schizophrenic "really" hears voices from aliens or whatever, the only difference is that religion (mass delusion) is okay. Makes little sense however you look at it, I know I could never be a christian even when I was a child, but I do appreciate there is some sense in what some relgions have to say (but none are part of the big three or any other better known religion generally). I personally belive in things that I cannot prove to you, but they exist to me...not quite sure what that makes me but then again I have no interest in making anyone else belive it.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

It makes you a human being, like every one of the rest of us ;). It also makes you more decent then most of us.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Shinto's relatively easy: Imperial Japan. 'Nuff said.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

If we are to speak of the Big 3, Judaism, the traditional practices of a single ethnic group, is not one of them. The big three would be Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism. The total number of ethnic Jews is 13 million and not all of them attend a synagogue at Shabbat these days.

[skull-bearer.livejournal.com]

Oops, my bad. Unfortunately my exposure to Hinduism is so small I don't think I could realistically make any judgement either way.

[underlankers.livejournal.com]

Still, though, Judaism is not a major religion in the demographic or political sense. Israel will be no more important in the long run than the Khazar state or the Hasmoneans, the two Jewish states before it and after the fall of Judah. And there are 6 billion humans on the planet, which makes 13 million minuscule.

[kirby-crow.livejournal.com]

It's like Christians saying that they are having more babies than atheists and thus we'll be bred out. LOL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull

Dude, no LOL. That shit's scary. o_0

[arkan2.livejournal.com]

The problem historically with criticizing Islam (and probably other minority religions) is that such criticisms have been co-opted (or, indeed, generated) by Western misogynists to justify colonial oppression. Western feminists have thought "well, my nation is pretty sexist, but it's a whole lot less so than theirs is," (not going to go into the discussion of whether this is or was objectively true) "so bringing Western culture to them would be, on balance a significant improvement." Problem being, in reality, colonialism by whatever name has had nothing to do with improving the lot of the colonized people (male or female), and everything to do with exploiting those colonized peoples for the benefit of the West (mostly the benefit of the Western patriarchal elite).

I liked your critique of the invasion of Iraq, but what you left out was that there, and in Afghanistan, the lot of ordinary Iraqi and Afghani citizens (y'know, the people the Coalition forces were supposed to be rescuing from dictatorship) has not significantly been improved, and may in fact be worse. In both countries, the US has set up puppet governments on the basis of how readily they serve US (corporate) interests, rather than how well they serve their own people. And for some unfathomable reason, US corporate interests seem to be served best by perpetuating the most reactionary, intolerant and patriarchal aspects of those cultures.

Er, anyway, getting back to your original point, at one point you say: The problem is, as I think I've said in another post, is not the majority, but the fundementalists.

And this does not suggest to you that perhaps the problem may not be inherent within the religion, but with fundamentalists' interpretations of same? I mean, you take the fundamentalists at their word that their narrow-minded "my-truth-is-the-only-truth-and-everyone-who-doesn't-believe-as-I-do-is-going-to-hell" version of a given religion is the "real" or "true" version of that religion.

Why isn't it at least equally valid to point to the people who do not see their religion as an injunction to "educate" (or just massacre) the Godless heathens, but to join with like minded peoples and to struggle against oppression as the true abomination to God, and say "no, this is the true face of [insert religion here]?" Since all religions appear to me to be founded fundamentally on the love of the divine and of our fellow human beings, this would make a lot more sense as far as I'm concerned.